Prove It To Me - Real Research, Real Data, No BS

In this #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law dives into a recent study that explores how sleep can affect dark personality traits. Are your sleep habits sending you to the dark side? Listen now to find out!
Episode Resources:
Poor sleep can bring out workers' darker side, study finds - Safety+Health Magazine
Kuijpers, E., Vergauwe, J., Vanderperre, S., Mairesse, O., & Hofmans, J. (2025). Rise of the Dark Side: How Sleep Perception Triggers Dark Triad States at Work. Journal of Organizational Behavior. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.2885
 

In this compelling episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Todd Loushine and Dr. Matt Law deconstruct traditional safety measurement approaches. They challenge listeners to think critically about how safety is defined, measured, and understood, exploring the complex relationship between data, perception, and workplace safety.
Listen now at www.proveitpod.com or wherever you get your podcasts!
Key highlights include:
Critiquing incident rate methodologies
Exploring statistical nuances in safety research
Discussing cognitive biases in safety interpretation
Demonstrating the limitations of current safety metrics
The presenters use real-world examples and academic research to illustrate how our current understanding of safety might be fundamentally flawed. They advocate for a more curious, experimental approach to safety management, emphasizing the importance of challenging assumptions and continuously learning.
Perfect for safety professionals, researchers, and anyone interested in understanding the deeper complexities of workplace safety beyond surface-level metrics.
Chapters:
Introduction of Speakers and Session Overview ‎00:00:48
The moderator, Kelton, introduced Dr. Todd Loushine and Dr. Matt Law as the presenters for the breakout session. Dr. Loushine was described as a certified safety professional with a PhD from Wisconsin, currently an associate professor at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater, and a former compliance safety and health officer. Dr. Matt Law was introduced as a certified safety professional with a doctorate in public health from Walden University, whose dissertation focused on occupational risk perceptions among foreign-born construction workers in central Florida. Dr. Law mentioned his podcast "Prove It To Me," noting that the first full-length episode featured a conversation with Dr. Loushine on the same topics they would be discussing in this session.
Scientific Method and Research Fundamentals ‎00:04:34
Dr. Loushine began by explaining that the scientific method is cyclical rather than linear, often involving setbacks and sometimes yielding no results despite significant effort. He emphasized that research is about seeking truth and understanding, not just confirming existing beliefs. Dr. Loushine introduced key research concepts including construct validity (whether one variable truly relates to or causes another), measure reliability, and bias assessment. He stressed the importance of peer-reviewed publications versus non-reviewed content, noting a disconnect between researchers and practitioners in the safety field.
Importance of Curiosity in Safety Research ‎00:10:23
Dr. Matt Law emphasized the need for curiosity in safety research, encouraging the audience to question both ideas that align with and contradict their preconceptions. He noted that the safety and health field lacks consensus on the "right way" to do safety, with many approaches (BBS, HOP, Safety One, Safety Two, etc.) having little evidence-based support. Dr. Law framed this as an opportunity for testing and measurement to determine what actually works in improving workplace safety.
Challenging Traditional Safety Metrics ‎00:12:16
Dr. Loushine questioned how safety is defined and measured, suggesting that if something can't be measured, its effectiveness can't be established. He presented statistical concepts related to normal distribution and explained why injury data doesn't follow a normal distribution but is asymptotic. Dr. Loushine argued that comparing companies to industry averages using incident rates is problematic because extreme outliers skew the data. He questioned whether judging safety program performance based on injury numbers is appropriate, comparing it to judging driving performance based solely on accidents.
Research on OSHA Data Reporting Issues ‎00:27:16
Dr. Loushine shared findings from his published study analyzing seven years of OSHA 300A data, revealing that approximately 12% of submitted reports contained errors or inconsistencies in reported hours worked or employee numbers. These errors significantly impact incident rate calculations since hours worked is the denominator in the formula. After making corrections to the data, Dr. Loushine found that the calculated rates didn't match Bureau of Labor Statistics figures, raising questions about the validity of these metrics.
Reinterpreting Heinrich's Pyramid ‎00:32:41
The speakers discussed Heinrich's pyramid (the theory that for every major injury there are numerous minor incidents and near misses), arguing that Heinrich's work has been misinterpreted. Dr. Loushine explained that Heinrich never claimed these incidents were directly related but rather demonstrated the value in understanding near misses and minor incidents that occur more frequently. Dr. Matt Law noted that comparing different types of incidents using different calculation methods doesn't make sense but is often done because "it looks kinda sexy."
Correlation vs. Causation in Safety Research ‎00:35:15
Dr. Matt Law emphasized the distinction between correlation and causation, explaining that many factors contribute to safety outcomes, with any single factor typically accounting for only a small percentage of the variance. He used the example of organizational size correlating with technology adoption but only explaining about 20% of the variance. Dr. Loushine discussed the Hawthorne effect as an example of misattributing causation, where researchers initially thought lighting levels affected productivity but later discovered it was the attention workers received that made the difference.
Common Cognitive Biases in Safety ‎00:43:36
Dr. Loushine covered several cognitive biases affecting safety judgments: attribution error (blaming the person closest to an accident), equity theory (perceptions of fairness in the workplace), human error (the inevitability of mistakes), safety culture (organizational attitudes toward safety), and the Dunning-Kruger effect (overconfidence when lacking knowledge). He shared how understanding these biases helped him approach safety management differently in his part-time EHS manager role, creating more learning opportunities and better relationships with workers.
Interactive Exercise on Defining Safety ‎00:46:24
Dr. Matt Law led an interactive exercise asking attendees to define safety, receiving varied responses including "sending people home in the same condition," "presence of capacity for failure," "low recordable rate," and "consistently making the right choice." Dr. Loushine offered his definition: "Helping workers get their job done effectively with as minimal risk as possible and hopefully they elicit satisfaction from the work they do." Dr. Law highlighted that the lack of consensus on defining safety makes measuring it challenging.
Approaches to Safety Measurement ‎00:48:37
Dr. Law discussed the challenges of measuring safety when definitions vary widely. He shared an anecdote about being asked how many safety professionals an organization should have, noting that his research found no strong correlation between staffing levels and factors like employee count or revenue. He described an organization that successfully developed staffing models based on quantitative risk profiles of their sites. The speakers encouraged experimentation with different measurement approaches rather than relying solely on incident rates.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts ‎00:54:29
Dr. Loushine concluded with an Einstein quote about measuring a fish by its ability to climb a tree, emphasizing the importance of appropriate metrics. He encouraged attendees to "observe without bias, seek to understand and test your theories." Both speakers thanked the audience and invited them to connect on LinkedIn and listen to Dr. Law's podcast "Prove It To Me" for more research-based discussions on workplace health and safety.

In this #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law attempts to make sense of a meme that claims recent research has found that roasting your friends makes you more loyal and trustworthy. Listen now to find out!
Episode Resources:
Gorman, G., & Jordan, C. H. (2015). “I know you’re kidding”: Relationship closeness enhances positive perceptions of teasing. Personal Relationships, 22(2), 173–187. https://doi.org/10.1111/pere.12071
Johannessen, E. M. V. (2021). Blurred lines: The ambiguity of disparaging humour and slurs in Norwegian high school boys’ friendship groups. Young. https://doi.org/10.1177/11033088211006924
Ledet, B. (2025, March 6). Blair’s social second: Do you insult or roast your friends for fun? FOX 2 Now, Nextar Media Inc. https://fox2now.com/am-show/social-second/blairs-social-second-do-you-insult-or-roast-your-friends-for-fun/
Murti, A. (2020, February 17). Research shows we all should absolutely, relentlessly roast our friends. The Swaddle. https://www.theswaddle.com/why-do-friends-roast-each-other
Platt, M., Malecki, C. K., Luckner, A., Wiemer, K., & Pyun, Y. (2022). You can’t sit with us…just kidding! An investigation into the association between empathy and prosocial teasing. Psychology in the Schools, 59(4), 832–844. https://doi.org/10.1002/pits.22650

In this brand new episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law talks to Dr. Gretchen Roman about original qualitative research into musculoskeletal disorders and psychosocial hazards among sign language interpreters. Can Total Worker Health® help us better understand the physical and mental health of this population?
Listen now at www.proveitpod.com or wherever you get your podcasts!
About Dr. Roman:
Dr. Roman received her doctoral training at Massachusetts General Hospital, Institute for Health Professions and Arizona State University, College of Health Solutions. She completed her postdoctoral training at the University of Rochester where she investigated the occupational health of sign language interpreters working remotely in response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the impact of a mindful practice intervention on the well-being of medical sign and spoken language interpreters. Dr. Roman is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Family Medicine Research with a dual appointment in the Department of Public Health Sciences at the University of Rochester. Her background includes roles as a physical therapist, orthopaedic clinical specialist, ergonomics consultant, and sign language interpreter. Currently, she is focused on a Mentored Research Scientist Development Award (K01) through the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health adapting a previously developed Total Worker Health® program to the context of sign language interpreting.
Episode Resources:
Roman G, Demian C, Love T, Yousefi-Nooraie R. Occupational safety, health, and well-being concerns and solutions for management reported by sign language interpreters: A qualitative study. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. 2024; 21(11):1400. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph21111400 
Dr. Gretchen Roman – University Profile Page https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/people/112363481-gretchen-a-roman

In this #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law digs into a study that suggests married folks are at a higher risk of dementia. Is it true? Listen now to find out!
Episode Resources:
George, J. (2025, March 25). Surprising findings from new research about dementia and marriage - U.S. study could challenge the belief that marriage protects against cognitive decline. MedPage Today. https://www.medpagetoday.com/neurology/dementia/114820
Karakose, S., Luchetti, M., Stephan, Y., Sutin, A. R., & Terracciano, A. (2025, March 20). Marital status and risk of dementia over 18 years: Surprising findings from the National Alzheimer's Coordinating Center. Alzheimer's & Dementia, 21(3). https://doi.org/10.1002/alz.70072

In Part 2 of this #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law continues exploring scare tactics used in workplace safety training and ends up putting his own foot in his mouth. Is this guy even credible? Listen now to find out!
Episode Resources:
Health Communication Capacity Collaborative. (2014). The extended parallel processing model: An HC3 research primer. https://www.healthcommcapacity.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Extended-Parallel-Processing-Model.pdf
Fredrickson, B. L., Cohn, M. A., Coffey, K. A., Pek, J., & Finkel, S. M. (2008). Open hearts build lives: Positive emotions, induced through loving-kindness meditation, build consequential personal resources. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 95(5), 1045-1062. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0013262
Lally, P., van Jaarsveld, C. H. M., Potts, H. W. W., & Wardle, J. (2010). How are habits formed: Modelling habit formation in the real world. European Journal of Social Psychology, 40(6), 998–1009. https://doi.org/10.1002/ejsp.674
Law, M. (2020). Four reasons OSH professionals must be better salespeople. Professional Safety, 65(2), 28-31.
Li, S.-C. S., Lu, P.-C., & Chen, S.-C. (2020). Emotions in fear appeals: Examining college students’ attitudes and behavioural intentions towards colorectal cancer prevention in Taiwan. Health Education Journal, 79(5), 569–582. https://doi.org/10.1177/0017896919891749
Liang, S., Raymond Rui, J., & Xu, P. (2022). Risk or Efficacy? How risk perception and efficacy beliefs predicted using hearing protection devices among different groups of Chinese workers. Safety Science, 154, 105858-. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ssci.2022.105858
Page-Bottorff, T. (2016). The habit of safety: Forming, changing & reinforcing key behaviors. Professional Safety, 61(2), 42-43.
Trope, Y., & Liberman, N. (2010). Construal-Level Theory of Psychological Distance. Psychological Review, 117(2), 440–463. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0018963
Worthington, A. K. (2023). 5.1: Fear appeals – The extended parallel process model. In A. K. Worthington, Persuasion theory in action: An open educational resource (pp. 5.1.1-5.1.5). https://socialsci.libretexts.org/@go/page/179347

In this new #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law does a rapid-fire deep dive into scare tactics used for workplace safety training. Do they work? Listen now to find out!
Episode Resources:
Brookes, G., & Harvey, K. (2015). Peddling a semiotics of fear: a critical examination of scare tactics and commercial strategies in public health promotion. Social Semiotics, 25(1), 57–80. https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2014.988920
Carey, R. N., McDermott, D. T., & Sarma, K. M. (2013). The impact of threat appeals on fear arousal and driver behavior: A meta-analysis of experimental research 1990-2011. PloS One, 8(5), e62821–e62821. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0062821
Health Communication Capacity Collaborative. (2014). The extended parallel processing model: An HC3 research primer. https://www.healthcommcapacity.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Extended-Parallel-Processing-Model.pdf
Koehler, M., Brockamp, T., Bamberg, S., & Gehlert, T. (2022). Change of risk behaviour in young people – the effectiveness of the trauma prevention programme P.A.R.T.Y. considering the effect of fear appeals and cognitive processes. BMC Public Health, 22(1), 595–595. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12889-022-12918-2
Türkel, S., Misci Kip, S., & Yasdıman, F. E. (2020). Use of fear appeal in work safety messages: An experimental study. Türkiye Iletişim Araştırmaları Dergisi, 36, 253–267. https://doi.org/10.17829/turcom.842695
Worthington, A. K. (2023). 5.1: Fear appeals – The extended parallel process model. In A. K. Worthington, Persuasion theory in action: An open educational resource (pp. 5.1.1-5.1.5). https://socialsci.libretexts.org/@go/page/179347

In this brand new episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law talks to Dr. Mani Berenji about mental health in the workplace, the research behind addressing mental health, the resources available to employers, and important discussions about messaging and the purpose of Total Worker Health®
Listen now at www.proveitpod.com or wherever you get your podcasts!
About Dr. Berenji:
Dr. Berenji is a double board certified physician specializing in Occupational and Environmental Medicine as well as Preventive Medicine. She is currently Chief of Occupational Health at VA Long Beach Healthcare System. She also leads the Environmental Health Clinic at VA Long Beach Healthcare System, conducting exposure assessments for veterans (including Agent Orange, Gulf War, and Open Burn Pit registry exams). She is Associate Clinical Professor in the Department of Occupational and Environmental Medicine at UC Irvine School of Medicine as well as Associate Clinical Professor in the Department of Environmental and Occupational Health at the Wen School of Public Health. She is Lead of Academic and Community Partnerships with the University of California Center for Climate, Health and Equity, where she is spearheading efforts to enhance academic and industry partnerships; evaluating new methodologies to enhance emergency preparedness surrounding climate-related events; working with community leaders on identifying practical climate solutions; and developing climate curricula for medical students and residents. She is currently pursuing board eligibility in Clinical Informatics through the American Board of Preventive Medicine’s Practice Pathway. She is Chair of the Health Informatics as well as the Environmental Health section of ACOEM and continues to lead the ACOEM Presidential Task Force on Digital Transformation through a Planetary Health Lens. She is also a certified medico- legal evaluator and qualified medical examiner in the state of California.
Episode Resources:
Mental Health at Work - World Health Organization
Workplace Mental Health - American Psychiatric Association
One Mind at Work
Mental Health at Work Index
Five Essentials for Workplace Mental Health and Well-Being - Office of the Surgeon General
5 Strategies for Improving Mental Health at Work - Harvard Business Review
Mental Health in the Workplace - Washington State Department of Labor & Industries

In this new #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law has a meltdown over the dirty C-word and proceeds to burn all the bridges with malice and forethought. He didn't even hit the alarm. Grab your fire extinguisher, and listen now!
Episode Resources:
Study explores complacency during workplace fire evacuations. (2025). Professional Safety, 70(1), 13.
Accessible at www.assp.org with a valid membership.
Occupant complacency in workplace fire evacuations
Gold, D., Thomas, D., Vincer, N., & Pitkin, M. (2024). Occupant complacency in workplace fire evacuations. Humanities & Social Sciences Communications, 11(1), 1134–15. https://doi.org/10.1057/s41599-024-03665-3
 

In this new #StudyFinds episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law has a short but sill unreasonable tangent about research dissemination followed by an investigation into a real workplace hazard. Like seriously. It's actually about #safety this time. And #health. Are you sitting down? Might actually be time to stop that.
Episode Resources:
Study asks: How much sedentary time is too much?
Accelerometer-Measured Sedentary Behavior and Risk of Future Cardiovascular Disease
Ajufo, E., Kany, S., Rämö, J. T., Churchill, T. W., Guseh, J. S., Aragam, K. G., Ellinor, P. T., & Khurshid, S. (2024). Accelerometer-measured sedentary behavior and risk of future cardiovascular disease. Journal of the American College of Cardiology. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jacc.2024.10.065